tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post7875892046644653087..comments2024-03-17T00:10:44.022+00:00Comments on From Arse To Elbow: We're All Skinheads NowDavid Timoneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03568348438980023320noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-40611135774971511012014-12-08T16:42:39.077+00:002014-12-08T16:42:39.077+00:00"merely noting that this has been grafted ont..."merely noting that this has been grafted onto older traditions"<br /><br />This is not pertinent though, what is more pertinent is this:<br /><br />"trick-or-treat looks to have been a byproduct of the spread of big stores from the 80s onwards."<br /><br />I think the consumerist culture is a US import and the UK is affected more than say France or Germany because of the particular features of US and UK capitalism, as well as some cultural factors (shared language for example). Things like trick or treat are our version of the North Korean big spectacle.Herbie Kills Childrennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-69197999298524334052014-12-08T16:21:09.792+00:002014-12-08T16:21:09.792+00:00I suppose I've been guilty of not differentiat...I suppose I've been guilty of not differentiating between 'US culture' and 'capitalist trends that originated in the US'. I think the fact that Halloween now tops Bonfire Night in this country is an example that backs up your argument and demonstrates that flag-waving in the UK is less a rising nationalist culture and more a development of consumer trends that happen to 'sell' identity. Igor Belanovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-19007270011118649712014-12-08T15:39:06.333+00:002014-12-08T15:39:06.333+00:00I'm not denying that trick-or-treat is a consu...I'm not denying that trick-or-treat is a consumerist import from the US, merely noting that this has been grafted onto older traditions (souling, guising etc). My point is that the categorical difference between the US and the UK is not pumpkins versus swedes, but the attitude towards the flag.<br /><br />On the sociological front, trick-or-treat may have started in the US in the 20s (apparently imported by exiled Scots and Irish), but it didn't become culturally dominant until much later. This seems to have been driven by the spread of supermarkets post-WW2, who saw it as a way of shifting seasonal pumpkins and started stocking cheap costumes and other tat that could be sold at a high markup.<br /><br />This seems to have been the major driving force in the UK as well, with Halloween acting as a promotional interlude between back-to-school and Christmas. In other words, trick-or-treat looks to have been a byproduct of the spread of big stores from the 80s onwards.David Timoneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03568348438980023320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-8546822413853887542014-12-08T12:17:09.600+00:002014-12-08T12:17:09.600+00:00I'm with Herbie there. When I was growing up (...I'm with Herbie there. When I was growing up (1980s) Halloween involved lanterns made from swede, not pumpkins, as well as older traditions like apple bobbing and such like. It was essentially a kids' thing, and no adults would have had a fancy dress party with masks and the like. You can compare with Bonfire Night, 'penny for the guy', toffee apples and cinder toffee, which I feel has declined in significance since my youth. The 'Trick or Treat' nature of Halloween does seem to be a consumerist function of a trend that started in the US. Igor Belanovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-81789882708931011352014-12-08T12:01:18.283+00:002014-12-08T12:01:18.283+00:00"A lot of recent US cultural imports are simp... "A lot of recent US cultural imports are simply European exports that have taken centuries to work their way back."<br /><br />I can't buy this for a minute, trick or treat, with its dressing up in costumes etc, is commodification. In my day you didn't dress up you just caused some mild mayhem, it was an independent activity, now it is used to flog useless shit.<br /><br />What is interesting is how long it took trick or treating to take off here, since it has been around in the US since the 1920's. I think it is connected to the consumerism of today, it is linked to this neo liberal period. To me it is a form of brainwashing, a clear example of how the system produces the people rather than people producing the system.<br /><br />Herbie Kills Childrennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-53093213132063190162014-12-07T22:29:52.897+00:002014-12-07T22:29:52.897+00:00A lot of recent US cultural imports are simply Eur...A lot of recent US cultural imports are simply European exports that have taken centuries to work their way back. For example, trick-or-treating originates in practices associated with the Celtic festival of Samhain, while proms were consciously modelled on debutante balls. Public schools don't have proms, any more than they had school discos in the 70s and 80s, because they have summer balls instead. They're identical, but a "ball" sounds posher.<br /><br />Where there is a real difference between the two sides of the pond is in the attitude to the flag, which has a bearing on the Dan Ware story. Most Brits regard a flagpole in someone's front garden flying the Union Jack as evidence of eccentricity, if not membership of the BNP. Burning the flag does not excite disgust, rather bemusement, which is why the rightwing nutters who are trying to import American-style reverence for national trappings have focused on burning poppies.<br /><br />The greater prevalence of flags since the 70s (and specifically the St Geroge's Cross) has less to do with the cost of material and more to do with the ready availability of them, and that in turn has a lot to do with the conscious employment of the flag (and blokes in Crusader gear) by tabloid newspapers. I recall that for Euro 96 the Sun gave away free flags, and you would routinely encounter sheaves of them in garage forecourts. They pushed it big time.<br /><br />Personally, I think this identification is skin-deep. Most people do not feel "respect" when they see an England flag. Ultimately, the mobbing of Emily Thornberry suggests a defensiveness on the part of the "patriots". If she had been American and had snapped a flag-bedecked house in the Midwest, there would have been no story. It was only the belief that there are many Brits who do regard the ostentatious display of the flag as a joke that gave it legs. That and Ed Miliband's calamitous response.David Timoneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03568348438980023320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-346904886293737372014-12-06T19:40:31.020+00:002014-12-06T19:40:31.020+00:00Anonymous5 December 2014 20:26
It was unwittingly...Anonymous5 December 2014 20:26<br /><br />It was unwittingly raised, I post becasue its cheaper than CBT. My view of the spread of US culture is because of US TV and when there was no TV, Hollywood films. A common language accelerates this effect compared to other European Countries. Coventionally people say the UK imports the worst of US culture, but I don't know.<br /><br />A recent episode of Paul Sinha's History Revision http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04sxr8s has a good explanation of the presence of Asian food in the UK.<br /><br />The powers that be don't care about working class culture. It seems that every comprehensive school in England will now have some kind of prom whereas 30 years ago it would have been a very low key school disco. It's very unlikely that the public schools of England have taken this up. I've no idea what the Etonian social functions are like but they won't be proms.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-27237156852450605812014-12-06T13:59:32.470+00:002014-12-06T13:59:32.470+00:00Anonymous, possibly unwittingly, raises an interes...Anonymous, possibly unwittingly, raises an interesting point there. In mentioning the transfer of US traditions regarding 'trick or treat', proms and flag-flying, you have the interesting situation whereby the continuing spread of US culture is treated in a very blase fashion by the media and the right-wing when compared with Asian or even Eastern European culture. It has certainly played a far greater part in eroding 'traditional' working-class culture than any trend from Europe or Asia. I'm not sure whether this is because economic and consumerist trends are more successful in permeating into society in a stealthy way, or whether conscious or unconscious racism comes into play. The area I work in is surrounded by Asian-owned food establishments, but curries and kebabs are less common than the ubiquitous burger, fried chicken and pizza joints. (For the purposes of this argument I'm treating pizza takeaways as a US export!) Igor Belanovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-25491230831065954352014-12-05T20:26:57.121+00:002014-12-05T20:26:57.121+00:00One thing about the skin head haircut is it is che...One thing about the skin head haircut is it is cheap almost anyone can do it with a hair clipper. Coventional wisdom has it that hair clipper sales increase in hard times, although I have yet to find any hard figures on this.<br /><br />There may be a similar effect for flags. The cost of fabric has come down in relative terms since the 1970s. Even if there had been a high demand for flags in the 1970s they would have been relatively more expensive. Another factor is influence of the US. The ubiquitous flying of the stars and stripes may have percolated across the pond in the same way as 'trick or treating' or 'high school proms'.<br /><br />I would much rather see Kelvin McKenzie jailed and tagged than Andy Coulson. I am still trying to figure out why there are no Murdochs in jail. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-85426535433127436352014-12-05T15:50:58.244+00:002014-12-05T15:50:58.244+00:00Indeed, a very intersting read. A couple of point...Indeed, a very intersting read. A couple of points.<br /><br />It was notable in this year's World Cup that the Flag was largely absent compared with previous recent tournaments. Maybe because of the sense of inevitability of defeat rather than any loss of underlying attachment, but maybe that defeatism is already well embedded in the "maudlin patriotism".<br /><br />"We're all middle class now" was always a con. Like Thatcherism, it played to people's self-delusion. In fact, throughout the Thatcher and New Labour eras, we've had consistent de-professionalisation, as the middle and lower-middle classes were progressively Taylorised.gastro georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-54883772325258842332014-12-05T12:25:22.163+00:002014-12-05T12:25:22.163+00:00Great analysis. One of the most annoying aspects o...Great analysis. One of the most annoying aspects of the whole saga was the whole media's portrayal of this one man as representative of the entire working class, and the reason why the Labour Party should further pander to the agenda of the tabloids. As you suggest, in many ways this type of person is symbolic of a transition in working-class conservativism, from foremen to white van-drivers, and essentially a residue of Thatcherism. I'm not sure how many of these type of people will have EVER voted Labour.Igor Belanovnoreply@blogger.com