tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post496704686747279688..comments2024-03-17T00:10:44.022+00:00Comments on From Arse To Elbow: Talk to the PeopleDavid Timoneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03568348438980023320noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-64802943424460024732016-07-16T18:05:52.552+01:002016-07-16T18:05:52.552+01:00It depends what is actually meant by "party l...It depends what is actually meant by "party loyalty" of course. Loyalty to the PLP, to the Party membership (as it actually is) or some mythical Labour Party tribe, that doesn't really exist except in nostalgic memories? gastro georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-33194667132526346702016-07-16T15:02:18.955+01:002016-07-16T15:02:18.955+01:00The labour right value their seats in parliament t...The labour right value their seats in parliament too much to form another party.<br /><br />The fact they have got so desperate, with the accusations of misogyny, anti semitism, bullying etc is testament to the fact that they are trying everything and anything to oust Corbyn, because they have nowhere else left to go and they know it.<br /><br />This blatant descent into the gutter is presented as something serious and the media happily go along with the story, so every other Telegraph and Guardian article follows this ridiculous narrative.<br /><br />This blatant attack on its own members is pretty unprecedented, the PLP and the interests that lie behind it are using every undemocratic trick in the book to try to ensure they win. If they can't win trying all these desperate tactics you do wonder where they go next! <br /><br />If we ever wanted to know what united liberalism and Toryism, aside from imperialist chauvinism, we now know!Herbie Kills Childrennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-70009341046925778222016-07-16T10:12:54.877+01:002016-07-16T10:12:54.877+01:00'For people like Eagle, party loyalty is a sub...'For people like Eagle, party loyalty is a substitute for policy'<br /><br />I'm not at all sure about this. For one thing, they would have been far more careful about when and how they challenged Corbyn. Secondly, as gastro george suggests, their hysterical behaviour in and after the 'coup' attempt suggests that they have burned their bridges and this is an all or nothing grasp to regain control or split the party.<br /><br />I reckon that if they retained some instincts of loyalty then a lot more MPs would have sought compromise with the leadership after the initial 'coup' had failed, and they would have done a lot more, not just recently but since last September, to analyse the pre-Corbyn failings of the party and appease many of the membership who are relatively moderate and insulted to be compared to thugs and insurrectionists. <br /><br />As such, for a lot of the PLP there is going to be no way back now.Igor Belanovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-78533217652867360112016-07-15T17:22:06.028+01:002016-07-15T17:22:06.028+01:00"... justify the purge through charges of vio..."... justify the purge through charges of violence, harrassment, misogyny and antisemitism ..."<br /><br />It's hard to credit the atmosphere of hysteria being created. From the charge of vandalism at Eagle's office, you would have thought the place had been trashed instead of one stone through a window. And then Corbyn is meant to be able to magically control the Twitter feeds of some NEC members. Unfortunately the story builds, and John Harris is now running hard with it in his latest Graun piece. Add that to Kinnock trying to tie this into the anti-Militant campaign of the 80s and they leave the realm of reality. As you say, the so-called left is remarkably mild and, as I've posted elsewhere, the SWP would be amazed to find that there are hundreds of thousands of Trots in the country.gastro georgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-47470557933702152912016-07-15T14:04:03.072+01:002016-07-15T14:04:03.072+01:00Your post put me in mind of this on AJP Taylor
htt...Your post put me in mind of this on AJP Taylor<br />https://originofspecious.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/a-j-p-taylors-philosophy-of-history/<br /><br />The theme is that Taylor was a great communicator because he thought people really did think for themselves, even if they couldn't articulate themselves. The one bit Ax gets wrong (entirely understandably) is when he thinks Taylor's prediction that foreign policy woould be driven by public opinion was wrong. That may have been too quick.<br /><br />Hugo Evanshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12705056750207255618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-15604304244063142202016-07-15T12:14:39.794+01:002016-07-15T12:14:39.794+01:00I think it unlikely that the Labour right will res...I think it unlikely that the Labour right will resign the whip and form a new party. However, if they did so, I doubt many anti-Corbyn centrists would follow suit. For people like Eagle, party loyalty is a substitute for policy ("If you sliced me in half I would have Labour running through me like a stick of Blackpool rock"). Outside the Labour movement they would be adrift and quickly eliminated by the right.<br /><br />The strategy appears to be to paint Corbyn & co as a de facto extra-parliamentary movement, hence the laughable over-estimation of the influence of Momentum and the emphasis on bullying and direct action (I suspect the Wallasey brick was the work of a 12-year old scally having a laugh). The NEC decisions on who will be eligible to vote in the leadership contest looks like the early signs of a purge.<br /><br />What the right wants to do is expel the left, and it looks like the centrists have now fallen in behind this plan (the "Kinnock manoeuvre"). Their problem is that the "left" of the Labour party these days are remarkably mild in their politics, mostly being a continuation of the Foot/Kinnock centre-left of old rather than Bennites (let alone Trots).<br /><br />The lack of any real policy deviationsim (attempts to make Trident a defining issue will backfire) leave the right with no alternative but to try and justify the purge through charges of violence, harrassment, misogyny and antisemitism, which means painting ordinary Labour party members as somewhere between UKIP and the BNP. That's not going to work.<br /><br />This struggle isn't going to be resolved through people on the street but in CLP meetings (the NEC attempt to suspend these for the duration of the leadership contest is telling). The Labour movement's commitment to the parliamentary road to socialism remains undimmed, hence the PLP are vulnerable.David Timoneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03568348438980023320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-81593307747465042022016-07-14T20:20:22.986+01:002016-07-14T20:20:22.986+01:00"Though some on the left harbour hopes for an..."Though some on the left harbour hopes for an extra-parliamentary movement, Corbyn is very much in the tradition of the parliamentary road to socialism in which popular engagement and public demonstration act as a buttress to support (and keep honest) the party in the legislature."<br /><br />If (I hope when) Corbyn wins this latest leadership election then the Labour Party could well be reduced to a small parliamentary rump and extra-parliamentary tactics will be vital. This scenario is probably the only strategy that the PLP have against Corbyn, blackmailing the members by threatening to take the bulk of their Westminster representation away permanently. I hope the membership resist this and prepare to strike out onto new ground, as I think 'parliamentary cretinism' has been one of the main restraints on the Labour Party adopting a more democratic position. That's not to say elections aren't important, just that obsession with them has helped to create the Labour clique we see so clearly today.Igor Belanovnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-58143474694472632742016-07-14T09:10:55.338+01:002016-07-14T09:10:55.338+01:00I personally didn’t see much to shout about from e...I personally didn’t see much to shout about from either the vote to remain or exit, I take a very pessimistic view of the current state of the British people.<br /><br />The best we can say about the exit vote, from the collective elector view, is that it was misguided and if a response to genuine problems that people face then it was the wrong response and will not deal with the problems people face.<br /><br />The worst we can say, and in my opinion much closer to the truth, is that it was a vote based on bigotry, prejudice and staggering levels ignorance. Rather than being an expression of being left behind by the elites it was actually a vote that expressed a sense of privilege. Those boat people who want our standard of living can fuck off and drown - this is the vote in its pure, truthful state. I.e. not an expression of grief from the underclass but a fuck off poor people from the imperialist centre. The centre where even the unemployed are better off than someone working 50 hours in a developing nation.<br /><br />The reason the collective voter is a socio/psychopath intent on preserving privilege at the expense of everyone else can be explained by the culture and history of this nation. Culturally shaped by the tabloid press, and a history of violence against native people and dominance of them. The Iraq war was a perfect illustration of how Britain views itself, still the master, still the civiliser of the natives. What the idiot pro imperialists always fail to consider is the barbaric affect this has on the population at home, aside from the fact that their imperialist adventures lead to chaos, disaster and arch reaction. Still on the plus side McDonalds manage to open a few more branches and fashion TV has a few more nationalities to treat like pieces of meat!<br /><br />Of course even from this pitiful state of affairs hope exists and the embodiment of hope is Jeremy Corbyn. If the centre left wolves manage to depose him them all they will have done is extinguish hope. Not that they give a toss about that!<br />Herbie Kills Childrennoreply@blogger.com