tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post4411910288529728077..comments2024-03-17T00:10:44.022+00:00Comments on From Arse To Elbow: The Progressive VoteDavid Timoneyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03568348438980023320noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-51111023499628321522019-01-27T19:51:39.160+00:002019-01-27T19:51:39.160+00:00«while Labour lost seats in the 2005 general elect...«<i>while Labour lost seats in the 2005 general election, it still won a majority despite the negative impact of its prosecution of the invasion of Iraq</i>»<br /><br />The central fact of the english political and economic situation is property prices and rents in the Home Counties and London and marginal constituencies.<br /><br />As long as the property boom is making property owners richer at the expense of workers, incumbent governments always get re-elected. All the property owners who cared deeply about Iraq etc. massively voted against New Labour in the 2004 local elections, because those elections don't really matter as to national government's property policies. In the 2005 national elections they merely stopped voting New Labour, but did not start voting Conservative, voting instead LibDem or did not vote, to avoid firing the government and risk the end of the good times they were enjoying.<br />Blissexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-59718125538913031622019-01-16T17:55:04.137+00:002019-01-16T17:55:04.137+00:00On top of that think of the free papers that are n...On top of that think of the free papers that are now in circulation. The Metro which is free on buses for christs sake is owned by those that own the Daily Mail. How the hell do they get away with that!<br /><br />The first thing a socialist government should do it withdraw it!Herbie Destroys the Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048523686842918848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-33089016908660665182019-01-16T17:47:32.299+00:002019-01-16T17:47:32.299+00:00Again, only just seen this!
The only evidence I h...Again, only just seen this!<br /><br />The only evidence I have seen from the ground so to speak is, and how can I put this politely, well, views based on total fucking ignorance and the kind of garbage printed in the gutter media. I see no evidence of fear of conversion but more out and out racism. I could say more but it would only depress me!<br /><br />I remember the debates around LGBT issues and the argument would be fear of conversion by parents concerned with inheritance. It was baloney then and is now.<br /><br />Having said that turns out most folk were not in any way homophobic, though with race issues I suspect those attitudes are harder to erode.<br /><br />Herbie Destroys the Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048523686842918848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-76607130926646815932019-01-16T17:40:14.418+00:002019-01-16T17:40:14.418+00:00Apologies - didn't spot this until today!
Sub...Apologies - didn't spot this until today!<br /><br />Subsidized as in reducing level of income from selling the actual newspaper. I would call advertising a subsidy because it is one part of the ruling class contributing to ruling class ideology.<br /><br />But I didn't have advertising in mind, I had in mind the actual direct investment by the ruling class billionaires (either through transers from more profitable parts of their empire or direct investment) and the fact that the gap between cost and sales volumes is ever rising, meaning that newspapers are more and more directed to overt propaganda because the owner can't simply treat it as a viable business.<br /><br />So for the media tycoon the money is made from sports, drama etc and not newspapers etcHerbie Destroys the Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048523686842918848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-36402966851634250082019-01-02T08:50:29.865+00:002019-01-02T08:50:29.865+00:00Herbie, you're from Sheffield IIRC (which IIRC...Herbie, you're from Sheffield IIRC (which IIRC is the Muslim-convert capital of the UK: I've heard some Muslims call it "little Chechnya" because of its large white Muslim population).<br /><br />Is there any evidence that you've seen that Islam and Muslims are considered an ideological threat as opposed to just a racial one? What I've heard about some parents yanking their children from RE lessons about Islam (or school visits to the local mosque) seems to fit, as the only reason I can think of why parents would do that is because they fear their children could be converted...George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-64400956404670892772019-01-02T08:44:02.560+00:002019-01-02T08:44:02.560+00:00Could you explain to me how newspapers are "h...Could you explain to me how newspapers are "heavily subsidised" (assuming that revenue from advertising doesn't count as subsidy)?George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08232682377757685194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-69217993931468722232019-01-01T14:46:12.649+00:002019-01-01T14:46:12.649+00:00Staffing levels didn't particularly reduce in ...Staffing levels didn't particularly reduce in any drastic way and certainly not before the trend to gentrification became a reality. In actual fact newspapers are heavily subsidised and even more so today, which is why every employee needs to be on point more so than ever!Herbie Destroys the Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048523686842918848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-65901784038310996132019-01-01T14:35:54.933+00:002019-01-01T14:35:54.933+00:00I'm guessing that "head bangers" is ...I'm guessing that "head bangers" is a reference to Muslim prayer, not a reference to fans of heavy metal music?George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-4983628461492430262019-01-01T14:34:27.547+00:002019-01-01T14:34:27.547+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-29769653060713137792019-01-01T14:31:10.836+00:002019-01-01T14:31:10.836+00:00It is the fall in revenues that was pivotal in cau...It is the fall in revenues that was pivotal in causing a reduction in their staffing levels, not the fall in influence.George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-90821517801217141532019-01-01T14:27:48.305+00:002019-01-01T14:27:48.305+00:00Let me ask another way, how do you get a return on...Let me ask another way, how do you get a return on this capital and what determines the rate of this return?Herbie Destroys the Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048523686842918848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-56968296375187814052019-01-01T14:26:31.064+00:002019-01-01T14:26:31.064+00:00Many jobs may require that, but this doesn't c...Many jobs may require that, but this doesn't change the fact that it changes the character of those professions.<br /><br />The reduction of working class people in journalism was something noted almost immediately, it wasn't a trend occurring after a decade or something like that. And the decline in local newspapers, not a major decline incidentally, came well into the noughties, long after the gentrification of the papers themselves.<br /><br />The actual evidence for a decline in newspapers is conflicting, certainly the fall in newspapers is nowhere near the fall in circulation or fall in revenues. This is simply because newspapers serve a function in shaping the minds of the masses and is not a function that will be given up so easily. Herbie Destroys the Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048523686842918848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-8834051084006306622019-01-01T14:12:56.366+00:002019-01-01T14:12:56.366+00:00I am from the North and have lived in Northern wor...I am from the North and have lived in Northern working class communities all my life and all I can say is that Brexit appears to me as being one of protecting the culture from the head bangers etc. <br /><br />You can read the Mail or the Sun in the morning and almost guarantee someone will repeat it before lunch! So to me it is a thoroughly racist cause in its actual appearance.<br /><br />I also don't see much appetite in the North for people to return to the mines. It isn't on everyone's lips in the same way immigration is.Herbie Destroys the Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048523686842918848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-58425713840219832012019-01-01T13:59:00.576+00:002019-01-01T13:59:00.576+00:00I doubt that nostalgia for the Empire was particul...I doubt that nostalgia for the <i>Empire</i> was particularly important, given that even most OAPs either hadn't been born or were children when the Empire was a going concern. I think it was more nostalgia for the nationalistic Old Labour and One Nation Tory governments, with their dirigiste economics and concern with the balance of payments (as well as military might: perhaps the Empire they are really most nostalgic for is the <a href="https://www.amazon.co.uk/Empire-Clouds-Britains-Aircraft-Ruled/dp/0571247954" rel="nofollow">Empire of the Clouds</a>?)George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-56088811697813773072019-01-01T13:51:54.341+00:002019-01-01T13:51:54.341+00:00In my estimation there were two main types of Leav...In my estimation there were two main types of Leave voters, both nostalgic in different ways: "Make Britain White Again" and "Make Britain Industrial Again". The former was more dominant among southerners and Tory voters, while the latter was more dominant in the Labour heartlands of the north and the midlands.<br /><br />Strong support for Brexit is more and more about racism, as the latter group (driven by despair over the deindustrialization of Britain under Thatcher and Blair: this particularly affects those who cannot adapt to the new economy because they either live in the wrong places or have a low IQ) are realizing that they were conned. This is why the biggest recent swings towards Remain have been in the Labour heartlands.George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-21737650390949837212019-01-01T13:43:02.474+00:002019-01-01T13:43:02.474+00:00Many jobs now require a degree that didn't 30 ...Many jobs now require a degree that didn't 30 years ago: I suspect the middle-class hegemony in journalism is more due to the decline of the local press (due to competition for advertising spend with radio, TV and internet media).<br /><br />This reduced the number of slots available for budding journalists (as well as having other negative effects, such as the rise of "churnalism" based on pre-packaged press releases), and made it almost impossible to begin a career in the industry without an unpaid internship. This, not the requirement for a degree, is what has <i>really</i> locked the working class out of journalism.<br /><br />Competition from newer forms of media is also why the UK national press has doubled down on catering to the baby boomer generation (who have the most purchasing power due to property capital gains), thus explaining the rise and rise of the Mail (as well as its consistently pro-house-price-inflation stance) and the decline of the Mirror.George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-24461335231857005662019-01-01T13:11:03.480+00:002019-01-01T13:11:03.480+00:00No -- what made you think it was?No -- what made you think it was?George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-46982678110892899932019-01-01T11:31:24.146+00:002019-01-01T11:31:24.146+00:00Is rate of return code for something?Is rate of return code for something?Herbie Destroys the Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048523686842918848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-13198713100533759702019-01-01T11:26:32.388+00:002019-01-01T11:26:32.388+00:00“I do it because a society dedicated to everyman-f...“I do it because a society dedicated to everyman-for-himself would be harsher for me as much as for others.”<br /><br />Tell that to the middle class in Venezuela or Brazil! This is another problem when progressive politics is dictated by the middle classes, they pervert the real class conflict, there is no way it is the 99% versus the 1%, in a country like Britain it is probably closer to 60:40 and even then all the cleavages along identity issues then comes into play. But the class struggle is not just against the bosses but also that middle class layer is clearly profit from the me me me society.<br />In fact you could argue that Blairism is the ultimate expression of Middle Class self interest. Think of journalism which is now stuffed full of the Middle classes. Now it was always a Middle Class profession but at least 30 years ago to become a journalist you simply needed 5 o levels or equivalent. Now you need a degree. The affect of this was to make journalism a monopoly of the middle classes with predictable results. For ruling class think tanks it must be like picking apples from a tree (thank god for the likes of Assange, who is naturally hated by Middle Class journalism)!<br />Herbie Destroys the Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048523686842918848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-29829505021267887112019-01-01T11:23:11.932+00:002019-01-01T11:23:11.932+00:00So progressive vote = what middle class people thi...So progressive vote = what middle class people think. Herein lies the problem, and has always been the problem to my mind.<br /><br />The Tory vote is never going to collapse. This is the ultimate in naivety!<br /><br />I agree with the conclusions to this, ultimately Brexit will not be far removed from remain everything else being equal. To me Brexit or Remain is a sideshow. I mean from a ‘progressive’ viewpoint what is the EU? A transnational power gaining from economies of scale, standardisation etc (and at what point does something become too big to manage efficiently?)? A power holding back the relative decline of the West in relation to the East (in which case is that really progressive?)?<br /><br /><br />I think Corbyn absolutely believes in a united Europe, just not on its current terms (Corbyn seems to believe that socialism can eventually come about via polite conversation between honest and rational actors). I don’t think Corbyn believes in hard Brexit, i.e. WTO terms as this imposes more restraints on his social democratic programme than the EU does. Not sure if Corbyn thinks that standing between the 2 means you can pull one or both closer to where you stand. But I imagine China, the USA and others will have something to say about that.<br /><br />Which is why I say the whole thing is a sideshow from a progressives point of view. The solution isn’t to be found in the institutions of the ruling class but by creating a working class movement, which I should emphasize is not a Middle Class movement in any way shape or form! Currently there is no movement to speak of and therefore there isn’t any progressive movement, let alone anything that could be called a progressive vote.<br /><br />“This doesn't make them xenophobic or callous,”<br /><br />Quite so. However if you look at the general positive response to a caller to a radio show who called for migrants to be blown out of the water (i.e. murder in the first degree) then this is what makes them xenophobic and callous and actually downright criminal! Scratch the surface of enlightenment values and you are left with dead migrants floating in the Thames.<br /><br />And this is what Brexit was all about, nothing more and nothing less. So called progressives will tell you that beneath all the surface level racism is actually a mask for economic woes but I claim if you keep digging all you will keep getting is racism.<br /><br />Now what we should be very wary of is when the establishment start taking up the cause of anti racism, anti sexism etc etc. This is used by the ruling class in the same way they use child abusers or terrorists, namely to get more power for themselves by building up security and mass surveillance. Like when they carpet bomb dark skinned people they always have some noble cause to fight when increasing their own powers, so increased internet surveillance in the name of fighting misogyny or bullying.<br /><br />Interesting on the BBC, that unadulterated propaganda network that I am forced to pay for, there was a montage of those who died in 2018, it was eulogy after eulogy for the great and good, Bush and McCain were described in glowing terms but then it came to Winnie Mandela who was portrayed as a monster! If she had been white and calling for the carpet bombing of Syria she would have been hailed a feminist hero!<br /><br />So the next time the BBC talk of internet bullying and misogyny just remember their motives!<br />Herbie Destroys the Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048523686842918848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-37921099911682295502019-01-01T11:19:39.219+00:002019-01-01T11:19:39.219+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Herbie Destroys the Environmenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03048523686842918848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-83995794324059488032018-12-31T19:20:04.516+00:002018-12-31T19:20:04.516+00:00For most the EU is part of the status quo. Any sma...For most the EU is part of the status quo. Any small c conservative in Labour or the Tories is going to want to remain. For OAP conservatives the EU was never the status quo rather it was the British Empire of their youth and their parents generation for them a leave vote was to somehow to restore the status quo. <br /><br />Wren-Lewis is a senior academic. This group has done well out of the EU. If you want to get on as an academic you have to publish in english language journals many controlled by Wren-Lewis types. UK higher education and research is open to EU nationals. The UK gets more out of the EU research budgets than it puts in. If you are a younger UK born academic you may face more competition from EU nationals for jobs in the UK, but you are working in an expanded sector thanks in part to the EU and you don't know no different. Wren-Lewis would probably not have had to face competition from non UK nationals for any of his early career jobs. For Wren-Lewis and similar noisy types Brexit is personal because his cosy world is being messed up.<br /><br />I voted remain (I couldn't face voting the same way as UKIP), but now I couldn't give a monkeys. The most depressing thing about it is all other issues are subordinated to it. Seemingly it's a perfect excuse for the government to do nothing.<br /><br />The current Labour policy is correct. Try and engineer a general election out of this and in the meantime stay vague on the Labour form of soft Brexit. If we can get an election don't fight it on Brexit. Fight on food banks the NHS and everything else.<br /><br />The main thing for me is not to take it too seriously. The finest standup currently can be seen weekdays after 10pm on BBC news. The most impressive thing about Laura Kuenssberg is she never corpses when delivering her material. It's an acquired taste and it helps to be well tanked up.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-26662202944974101412018-12-31T17:49:18.289+00:002018-12-31T17:49:18.289+00:00That's a good point. There are clearly plenty ...That's a good point. There are clearly plenty of voters who are giving May the benefit of the doubt until March. The idea that the Tories will maintain their current polling levels once the focus moves back to wages & housing, and thus territory of Labour's choosing, strikes me as naive.David Timoneyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03568348438980023320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-81792172498463298592018-12-31T17:39:42.037+00:002018-12-31T17:39:42.037+00:00Corporal Begob, reporting from Blue Dorset. My fee...Corporal Begob, reporting from Blue Dorset. My feeling, from many guarded Brexit conversations with strangers, is that the Conservatives will suffer a significant degree of desertion once the treaties "no longer apply" on 30 March. <br /><br />Ordinary people, who have daily interactions with EU immigrants yet who jokingly complain about foreigners, do recognise the typical Tory as an out-an-out shit to be wiped off the sole of the boot. But only once over the threshold.begobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5312853715123370916.post-49847475095919567472018-12-31T16:14:31.020+00:002018-12-31T16:14:31.020+00:00Why aren't the Lib Dems doing much better in a...Why aren't the Lib Dems doing much better in affluent parts of southern England which voted Remain and where the Lib Dems are already the strongest anti-Tory force?George Cartyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12170378024031141482noreply@blogger.com